What is Gifford's solution? To double the cap to 130,000. I left a message for staff C.J. Karamargin 520-881-3588 (or 202-225-2542) on March 20th but C.J. did not return my call.
According to the March 19th InfoWorld article "Bill would double cap on H-1B visas," she introduced the bill just one day after Bill Gates had testified before Congress - and no representatives of U.S. workers were invited to rebut Gates:
The Innovation Employment Act, introduced by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, an Arizona Democrat, late Thursday, would increase the cap in H-1B visas from 65,000 a year to 130,000 a year... Giffords sees the importance of H-1Bs because Southern Arizona has been growing as a hub for tech companies, Karamargin added. "There's a need to stay competitive and keep the momentum growing," he added. "That means making sure the talent is available to drive the local and national tech economy."
QUESTIONS FOR C.J
In my voicemail I asked C.J., roughly:
Can you name just two tech companies in Southern Arizona that cannot find qualified American tech workers, and failed to get H-1b workers to fill those positions due to the current H-1b cap or lottery?
According to Arizona Central CareerBuilder job search, there are 832 IT positions advertised. But there are also 1840 sales and marketing ads, and 2680 healthcare ads. So how did Rep. Giffords determine that IT workers rather than healthcare, sales, and marketing workers are what are needed to keep Arizona's economy strong?
The InfoWorld article states, "The bill would prohibit companies from hiring H-1B workers, then outsourcing them to other companies, he said. H-1B opponents have complained that outsourcing companies are among the top users of H-1B visas." Can you please show us in the bill where the top users of H-1b "InfoSys, TCS, Wipro..." would be limited in their use of H-1b? We can't find any such language.
Why didn't Rep. Giffords arrange to hear from the U.S. IT workers who will be impacted by her bill before submitting it? Does she care more about the profits of multi-national corporations than about assuring that U.S. citizens have priority for U.S. jobs?
What is it with Arizona representatives and their desire to increase the H-1B quota at the expense of skilled US workers?
A year or two ago it was Rep. Jeff Flake. It just so happens that Intel Corp. was a top contributor to Rep. Flake's campaign:
Congressman John Shadegg (R-AZ) was in on another one of these H-1B increase bills
Now Rep. Gabrielle Giffords wants to provide more disincentives for Americans to enter technology careers.
Rep. Giffords, why didn't you have any representatives of skilled US workers at the so called "hearing" you gave to Bill Gates? Why didn't you have any opposing or alternative views at this so called "hearing". Do you realize Bill Gates speakes for Microsoft, its shareholders, and the tech industry - not US workers?
Has Rep. Giffords even bothered to investigate how many H-1Bs are already here?
The H-1B cap is not 65,000. It's 85,000 plus. That's
+ 20,000 masters degree
+ unlimited non-profits
In 2006, that came out to 130,000.
So if, when the "cap" was 65,000, there were 130,000 visas issued, does that mean that if the "cap" were raised to 130,000 there would be 260,000 visas issued?
Next question, how many tech jobs are created each year? At 130,000 visas you need more than 10,000 new tech jobs per month.
Rep. Giffords, why don't you answer these questions?
I thought the Democrats were supposed to be the party that stood up for America's working class?
Rep. Giffords, are you really a Democrat?
According to Arizona Central CareerBuilder job search, there are 832 IT positions advertised. But there are also 1840 sales and marketing ads, and 2680 healthcare ads.
You make a great point. The numbers show we need guest workers much more badly for sales/marketing/healthcare than for IT.
Heck, the IT workers are getting hammered badly enough by offshoring. Throwing more guest workers in only adds insult to injury.
Why not just nationalize all hiring and talent acquisition? Businesses could shrink their HR departments. Whenever they experience a worker "shortage" they can ask Congress for more guest worker visas.
We are in the middle of a recession. Some economists say it'll be the worst since the Great Depression. Companies aren't hiring. People are losing their jobs. There's not enough work to go around. So, what do politicians want to do? They want to increase the number of H1-B workers and put more Americans out of work. The logic is tortured and completely ridiculous. This bill makes no sense whatsoever.
I tend to think that Arizona politicians push these bills because no one in Arizona understands what they are doing. The tech economy here is very weak, and those who are here are relatively clueless. I blogged about this on my blog as well:
AZ's own Gabrielle Giffords votes to increase foreign work visas
Corrupt politicians. Greedy tech companies will pay for it dearly in future. Enrollment in computer science/engineering majors has dropped. No reason to do 4 year of hard work when other fields offer much better pay and job prospects.
Talking on this blog won't do nothing. Take action - contact your local rep/senators with these facts THIS week. Of course, numbersusa.com has easy to send and free faxes.
Next week may be TOO late. I think the AZ rep is just a front person to initiate this bill, there is a whole lot of support behind it.
"Heck, the IT workers are getting hammered badly enough by offshoring. Throwing more guest workers in only adds insult to injury."
Well said, it is a double whammy and will be the death of a once respectable and lucrative profession.
I expect that this will pass the house Monday March 31 when no one is watching. Not sure what happens in Senate though.
Raise the noise level.....
H1b Cap increase may pass this year as the opposition is waning. Lobby for Pro H1b is so strong that it can be passed this year or next year. Till now H1b legislation was blocked for 2 years but not defeated. Also virtually no opposition for increasing OPT period to 29 months. This shows that H1b cap also can be increased without much opposition. I think PG is working actively but I believe PG has limited resources and money power compared to Pro immigrants lobby.It is going to be pathetic if H1b increase will be done 130 or 200k when economy is losing jobs under severe recession. Even most optimistic estimates shows that economy creats 100k new jobs every year and H1b Cap will be more than 200k(if increased). Ultimately Corporations does not bother about replacing US jobs
You're talking like these lobbyists own congress.
Kim, we need to highlight the politicians who are selling their votes to these software companies!
Yes, the pro-immigration lobbyists paid by Tech Cos and immigration lawyers DO own Congress. There are only a few grassroots groups like Kim, Numbersusa, Fairus who are in the opposition.
Unless the opposition mobilizes soon and loudly within the house and senate halls, this is a done deal.
It looks like H1b Cap increase is done deal. One provision is an employer can hire only 50% of work force. This is only good provision for US citizens. But this applies only if total employee count is more than 50.So one can start many companies with employee count 49 to escape from this provision. It needs to be seen how everything will come out. My main concern is exemption of certain group from Cap. That will ultimately make H1b number unlimited. No one is very serious about it. I really doubt anything can be done by PG or Numbersusa. Last 2 years PG and numbersusa struggled hard to block the bill.But how long they can withstand the money power and Clout maintained by Pro immigration Group. It is important to mobilize the support to block the bill this year. If inevitable then at least exemptions should be avoided and some restrictions need to be introduced to curb the abuse of H1b and protection of US jobs
Please extend your thanks to Senators Grassley and Durbin for standing up to the lobbyists and investigating the gross abuses in the H1/L1 programs - before any cap increase is considered.
You go to the I.T. shop of any big corporation, and you will see hordes of H1-B Visa programmers.
When I lost my programming job in 2001, I had twenty years experience. My boss told me I wasn't doing a good job. My replacement was an H1-B Visa programmer from India.
There is no limit to the greed of corporations. Since 2001 I have worked with several young people with computer science degrees who can't find jobs.
I just got my CDL, and will be driving a truck. At least I don't have to worry about being displaced again.
American programmers are the best in the world, but by no means the cheapest. Cast your vote wisely in November. We definitely need to re-direct this country.
if they think they can simultaneously keep property prices afloat AND dilute the job market they are certifiably nuts. This is what happens when you have greedy people running the show.
They got around it - read here
I am on H1B and have a PhD, employed by a top US Auto Company. It is going bankrupt due to no innovation in past and being taken up by foreign Japanese competition. They are still looking for Software and Controls engineers. Every other day they send emails to employees(mostly US citizens) to refer software and controls people. Where are all the people who are saying they are driving trucks and are jobless due to H1B. Why are they not applying? Truth is they are already working well or are too lazy/busy in their US lifestyle. Actuallt, my company is going bankrupt due to this working lifestyle only. They are coming back only by internally changing their style of working and thinking quality.
All anti-H1B is sheer anti-immigration propaganda and hate towards immigrants. It is not new. Immigrants were hated when they came from Ireland, Italy, etc. They were notorious in Chicago, NY gangs/underworld. So, there was anti-immigration propaganda. Now it is Mexicans and others. People who are already here dont want new ones to come. It is that simple!! and dude, it dont work that way.
p.s. Please apply at my company. You already know where I work. Please…dont BS here..apply…I’ll see you there..
"All anti-H1B is sheer anti-immigration propaganda and hate towards immigrants."
Let's see. Somebody wants to see the loophole ridden H-1B program reformed or opposes an increase in H-1B visas and you personally attack them and accuse them of immigrant hatred? You accuse them of being against ALL immigration?
To conclude that someone hates you and other immigrants just because they oppose an increase in H-1B visas is absurd.
Thanks for raising awareness on this issue.
Representative Lamar Smith introduced a bill a day after HR 5630 that proposes to triple the H-1B visa cap. Please contact your representatives via writing to let them know what you want the to do about this.
"All anti-H1B is sheer anti-immigration propaganda"
What's wrong with that - the open borders groups do the same for their own cause on the opposite side? It's the normal part of politics where every group lobbies for their self-interests using all legal means. When arguments fail, call the other side bigoted -sure. Let me accuse you of "sheer pro-immigration propaganda".
Anyways, the H1B cap has been rendered moot due to time extension in the OPT training for foreign students - go here and make your voice heard per all the suggested actions - let DHS and Congress know.
What more do you need to say , to prove Anti-immigrant propaganda is some things like this.
There is a comment in the same page that a person is fired after 20 years of programming experience from a Programming position. Wow !! even after 20 years one is a still a programmer not being a manager or some thing else.. that itself answers.
I don't think if one says stop hiring foreign workers would solve the problem if so then firms would directly move out of US insearch of talent.
One misunderstanding is that ALL H1B are being done to layoff american workforce. A person who knows EXCEL doesnt mean hez a computer professional or can do highly skilled work. There are many H1B workers who earn way beyond an Avg american workforce in IT does. So just dont categorize everyone in this .
I agree that some things needs to be done to tighten some loopholes of Visa programs but not so drastic for ppl who are genuinely here for all good causes and supporting american economy will suffer. One thing to be noted is all Americans are immigrants and just thinking that not letting anyone else come in in the myth that it will keep salaries high is nothing but a Myth. I dont see a relation between Many qualitative H1 and salary drops.
"I don't think if one says stop hiring foreign workers would solve the problem if so then firms would directly move out of US insearch of talent."
You are missing the point. The problem is not keeping jobs in US- jobs will come & go and people will adjust. The problem is over-population due to both illegal and legal immigrants overwhelming the country. Once that is stopped, the country will find its economic niche in whatever field it happens to be competitive.
Yes, most H1Bs earn way more than average US citizens. So what's the point. Does that make them superior and welcome? That is sheer arrogance.
No, not all Americans are immigrants, their ancestors were. There is a big difference.
An earlier comment raises a valid point:
"I don't think if one says stop hiring foreign workers would solve the problem if so then firms would directly move out of US in search of talent."
Which raises the question: why not just outsource everything? It is cheaper after all.
In my experience, it's because the foreign engineers have to first be trained by Americans before they are useful. After that, the jobs do get outsourced. I personally observed a semi company who had a foreign engineer being trained in every American's cubicle. After a year of training, they outsourced all the jobs back to India, and closed the division.
Anybody else? What's the rationale for bringing H-1Bs here when the companies could simply outsource?
Highlighting the politicians that are selling their votes:
The Bill Gates Six
Kim Berry and his followers are living in a myopic world that is failing to realize that the landscaping of the computing/IT world has changed. Today’s key word is “Global”, pals. Things have changed and companies are operating globally and have to face global challenges. So, they go looking for talented people all over the world. And yes, in a capitalistic society, companies look for cost efficient methods. Profit is the key. Company executives and directors are responsible to their share holders and they will do everything possible to make the share holders happy. There is nothing wrong with that because it is these share holders who have risked their money. So, if they can find the best talent in India, Philippines, or Eastern Europe, they will go there.
This country has thrived because of immigrants and it will continue to do so. It is the immigrants who bring fresh and brilliant ideas.
Also, keep in mind that United States provides the best environment that invites foreign talent. This attracts the most talented people from other countries. I have heard people in those countries complaining about it too – especially when they lose their best talent to United States. My reaction to them has been the same – Deal with it. It is a competitive world.
So pals, you can all sit here and whine. The other option is to go back to school, get yourself educated about the latest technology and be more competitive and make yourself more deserving for American Companies. It’s your choice pals. Whining here is not going to make any changes or impact United States or the World.
Kim, my recommendation to you is to stop whining, shutdown your blog, quit your IT job and do something else that you like – like starting a farm that provides fruits that will help keep your community healthy. Any thoughts or are you going to say that immigrants from Mexico will steal this job from you too?
"There is nothing wrong with that because it is these share holders who have risked their money. So, if they can find the best talent in India, Philippines, or Eastern Europe, they will go there."
Yes, why not. Please go there. That's what we are asking..
Kim is not fighting just for his IT job but on behalf of many Americans who want to preserve the future.
"like starting a farm that provides fruits that will help keep your community healthy. "
Yes, if the Tech Cos move away to better countries as you said, we can use the emptied space in the West for farming as you suggest.
To Anonymous that wants Kim to become a farmer:
Ask yourself a question. If the smarter people live outside the US where they are cheaper and there are no laws against outsourcing, why do companies want to bring them here?
Probably for the same reason those same people come to study here. Because the best and the brightest are U.S. citizens whom everyone else comes to learn from and to who the best companies submit their foreign labor to for training.
I'm just wondering, why not outsource? Why go through the legal hassles of bringing people here? Do you have an answer?
<<<< I'm just wondering, why not outsource? Why go through the legal hassles of bringing people here? Do you have an answer? >>>>
The primary reason of getting foreign labor is because we cannot find enough local people to do the job. This does not apply in all the fields. But when it comes to specialized skill sets, there are times when you run into challenges. I am a recruiter and I prefer to hire local talent. It’s easy to deal with and in many cases it is a lot cheaper than H1-B candidates when you take all the costs into account. But 7 out of 10 times I don’t find a local candidate whom my client likes. So, I end up using a foreign worker.
Now as far as outsourcing is concerned – Yes, it’s cheaper. But many clients want someone onsite. So, when I cannot find local talent, I use a foreign worker. We pay them very well and many times they are more expensive than a local guy. Typical hourly rate in Northern California is anywhere from $65 to $120 based on the type of skill set and location. Now ask yoursel - Is your current employer paying you that much. If not, then it’s your problem. You don’t have the adequate skill set. So, go take a class and get it and you will get paid well.
Now on the lighter side, this is no different from an American going and finding a bride in Russia or the Philippines. I don’t think there is shortage of women in US. But they are looking for special skill sets like they need someone who will cook and clean and someone whom they can control – LOL.
So pals, it is what it is. Deal with it or find a job in some other field. Don’t blame corporate America or our Senators. They are doing the best for the country.
Change is difficult. But deal with it and stop whining. You can’t and won’t be able to stop it. The best course of action for you guys is to adapt to the change and move with it.
'Just Deal With It' may seem like the intellectual high ground, but what this scenario does is degrade economic development in the long term. IT was the first field that was hit, why not bring in cheaper doctors, lawyers, even HR professionals? Why is corporate america paying you to run resumes through a search engine when we could do it for far far less with imported foreign labor? There is no reason.
The problem that the Senators need to look at is the fact that how are people going to pay the mortgages that we decided to artificially inflate if they don't have a job, and they don't have a stake in the local economy? Get with the program and take a class? I think America bought this idea of 'ongoing adult education' for a little while, but there is no reason why I should have to go back to school every two years because my company replaced me with some Indian willing to work for chick peas. In this scenario, America pays, and it pays dearly.
we are letting politicians playing up to the nearsightedness of the mob destroy this country with these kinds of policies.
Some company is processing H1b from India. H1b person is waiting in India for many months or years to get a job in USA.Here they are asking more H1b though many h1b persons are sitting in India.
I will ask one question to Indians who are talking about global? Can any foreigner can get a job based on skills in India? Even for Indians there is reservation in many jobs and also education. How can they talk about merrit or skills? There so much protection in job for locals in India what is wrong in asking protection for US workers. Of course US can recruit if really shortage of skill. If shortage of skill here why should companies like TCS process H1b and keep them for months and years. They should bring all H1b persons on same day and start the employment. Companies like Microsoft, Cisco can require skills for hardcore programmers or R&D job. But many jobs including QA does not require rocket science and americans can do with a few months training.
they would be doing a hell of a lot more than QA if they had the opportunities to develop skills. Thanks for pointing out that the justifiers that Indians often use do not hold true for their home turf. I have no idea where Indians get the idea that America owes them something. Ive heard some comments to the effect of: Whiteman owes us for colonization! did you know the Prime Minister Singh's daughter works at the AMERICAN ACLU? These people are invading our country.
the whole thing just stinks so bad we should just fire these stupid senators and give them a job shoveling shit.
To the recruiter who advises "Deal with it."
Thank you for confirming my assertion with :
"Now as far as outsourcing is concerned – Yes, it’s cheaper. But many clients want someone onsite."
But, you still haven't answered the question, so I'll ask again. Why do they want someone onsite?
As for your assertion that foreign workers cost more, it's groundless, and I suspect that if you're really a recruiter, you know that.
A fully-loaded engineer in the semiconductor industry in 1999 cost roughly $200 per hour. That cost includes beneftis such as insurance and vacation.
If you're stating hourly wages, I suspect you are supplying contractors. In that case, yes you're correct, the cost is anywhere from $60 to $125 an hour. These contractors however, receive no benefits from the hiring company.
That saves the company between $135 and $80 per hour. Foreign engineers are not paid more, they are paid far less. This issue has nothing to do with skill sets.
Now, getting back to my original question. Why do companies want to bring the engineers here when it is cheaper to just outsource and according to your argument, foreign engineers have superior skill sets anyway? What is the motiviation for the company to pay more, go through the legal hassles and bring H-1B wokers here?
"Can any foreigner can get a job based on skills in India? Even for Indians there is reservation in many jobs and also education. How can they talk about merrit or skills?"
No is the answer. They will look at you funny if you even applied. Try going to one of the "Indian" job fairs in the Bay area or let your kids apply to the IITs.
Classic double standards and arrogance is at work here...
Classic double standards and arrogance is at work here...
yes, I think the public is just starting to catch on that Bill Gates is selling us a turd sandwich. None of this stuff makes any level of sense.
For one, outsourcing is not that cheap and the accountants know it. Indian rupee is inflating, American dollar deflating. There is scarcely any value in outsourceing aside from those who have already (foolishly) made serious commitments to it. It is these groups that drive most of our pro-outsourcing policies here in the US.
So the last ditch effort of major corps to keep thier market share (rather than having it go into the general solutions market that regular hard working americans would service) is to sell America on the idea that importing dirt cheap laborers from another country is actually Good For Them. America pays a lot in this case.
Mr. HR Guy, so you like your position in America huh? whose going to buy your house when youre ready to retire? Not a h1-b laborer. Hes fixin to live like a king in the third world, complete with slaves. The fact is your mixture of ignorance and arrogance (if you are actually authentic at all) is what is putting America in the dumpster.
No is the answer. They will look at you funny if you even applied. Try going to one of the "Indian" job fairs in the Bay area or let your kids apply to the IITs.
That's not correct. Many foreigners work in India currently. The number is possibly going to go up if the Indian economy continues to grow.
You should be glad that your kids cannot apply to IIT under the general category. Getting their asses kicked in the joint entrance examination will do their confidence no good.
Claim that these h1bs are highly skilled is crap. At most, couple of thousand have phd type skills. Rest are imported to depress wages.
If such highly skill labor is available in india, how come there are no significant software companies in india? By software I mean companies that drive most of their revenue from licensing/subscription/maintenance like Microsoft, Oracle. Wipro, Ibm are not software companies! As far as I know only significant pure software company based in India has been i-flex acquired by Oracle. Much smaller European countries have done much better than that. Plus hardly any scientific papers comes out of India. just wondering what these people are doing with these "high skills" needed by Bill Gates.
I am surprised to see that Kim Berry and his team is still in a state of “denial” of desire for something sought but not acquired. Indians have proven again and again that they are good with Mathematics and Computer Software. If you guys are not convinced, go back to school and take a class on Ancient History.
You guys come across as protagonists who always fails to reach some grapes hanging high up on a vine, retreats, and rationalizes that the grapes are probably unripe anyway. When you cannot get to the grapes, you call it unripe, sour, etc.
You like to blame Indians for losing your jobs. It’s kind of like the folks in Detroit in the 80s who blamed Japanese car companies for losing their jobs. Little did they realize or mention then that Toyota became a world leader because they emphasized on quality and used very good cost cutting practices.
Software world is going through a similar change. Companies like Microsoft, Oracle, Siebel, etc have found that Indians are very talented. Don’t tell me that the people who are leading these companies don’t make intelligent decisions. Many IT departments and business units are lead by Indians.
Kim Berry must stop behaving in an unsportsmanlike or ungracious way. Get a grip on your anger and frustration at having failed to acquire something. Stop acting like a “sore loser" and get a grip. May be go back to UCD and take some evening or weekend classes and be in a position where you can compete with Indians. If you do this, you might make 50 cents more than a HI-B candidate.
You mention Microsoft and Oracle.
They are just two of the innovate software companies who have development centers in India (in addition to other countries) and support the H1b program. They are American owned.
As is IBM, which also has development centers in India. Or Google.
And you probably know the relationship between Microsoft and Bill Gates...
What software company have you founded and cutting edge research do you do? People like you shouldnt show your ignorance on the forums - you will harm whatever 'cause' you support.
"Mr. HR Guy, so you like your position in America huh? whose going to buy your house when youre ready to retire? Not a h1-b laborer. Hes fixin to live like a king in the third world, complete with slaves."
Not really. Most H1-b 'laborers' who put in years of hard work, pay taxes and for social security, like America and the American way of life. Otherwise why would they be here for such a large part of their lives.
Of course the way the H1-b visa is set up, how difficult it is to convert the visa to a green card and then a citizenship; will force many of them to go back. But who wins even then. You - who take advantage of the taxes and social security which someone else has paid for but doesnt get any benefit from.
There is a good and bad to everything. Whiners like you will never be happy. Try to improve your skills, work harder and stop being jealous of anyone who is different from you. You can live like a king wherever you are.
I've launched a sitelet to track news and blogs on these bills. Please check it out, leave any links you think are of interest and let me know how you think it could be improved.
HR 5921 Introduced to eliminate per country limits and H.R 5882 bill
This is more dangerous than H1b and increasing h1b quota. There are millians of people in inida/china with Masters degree in STEM. Those people will be able to get there green card very fast and outsourcing companies going to use green card instead of H1 .
HR 5921 will not have any impact on overall immigration numbers. It will impact other country people. Also there are so many bills which is increasing green card quota. Also one other bill is recapturing 220k green cards which were lost in 1990s. This year so many high tech H1b and green card related bills were introduced. If a few of them is passed that will be enough to flood people from India. Let us see how PG and numbersusa tackles them
This is a very important post. Individual Congress people can be influenced by this. Giffords serves on the Armed Services Committee and claims she is working for our troops. But H-1B's and foreign immigrants have given night vision and B-2 stealth to China. Insurgents buy Chinese night vision equipment to use to kill our troops. So her H-1B support is a betrayal. She has a masters degree from Cornell and was a manager in a company before her Congressional job.
Great site by Hamilton and good links to who pays this Congress that puts China, India, Mexico, and insurgents first.
Vote 3rd party until major parties change
Thanks for checking out the summary site Old Atlantic Lighthouse!
I'm always surprised at how few software people are aware of these bills, so I thought maybe mixing the two, programming and politics, would help raise awareness.
I just started a series of articles about how the system that displays the sitelets is built and hosted using nothing but blogger and Google Docs. Hopefully the perk of a series of tutorials on some of the newer Google APIs will get a few more people to look at these bills.
How can Obama claim to be against outsourcing and for increasing H1Bs and L1s? I have been considering voting democrat for the 1st time, but I think he's been to vague with his statements. I know McCain is for un-limited H1Bs! I wonder where Sarah Palin will stand on it. I know she was a Pat B. Supporter, and he was against H1Bs.
Instead of scrapping this bill, why don't suggest changes to it. Make it un-limited H1b But with minimum wage requirements of 90-100k.
More immigrants=more slave labors - check out the logic at the following post.
This bill, which Giffords and CJ Karamargin embrace, contributed to the loss of IT jobs in this country. I know, I am a consultant and saw the jobs leave the work place. I had the terrible experience of finding out that one of those laid off, an older woman who was sharp, friendly, and great to work with died alone in her home over the winter. Anybody in the ranks of IT knew this bill hurt - amazing how blind Giffords and her spokesman CK Karamargin were.
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