Thursday, November 15, 2007

Lou Dobbs challenges Bill Gates to debate H-1b visa

Bill Gates has asked Congress for an "unlimited number" of H-1b visas. Watch Lou Dobbs ask Gates to discuss the matter. (We suspect that Gates will decline this opportunity to explain to the world his reasons for wanting an H-1b increase.) Lou Dobbs Transcript November 13, 2007 IS HERE



BILL TUCKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There is no shortage of students studying for careers in Math and Science. There is a shortage of jobs. That's the simply bottom line finding of a new study from the Urban Institute.

The study shows that between 1985 and 2000 435,000 U.S. citizens and permanent residents a year graduated with Bachelors, Masters, and Doctoral degrees in Science and Engineering. That's three times the number of jobs in Science and Engineering added per year, 150,000 during that time.

Separately Michael Teitelbaum at the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation told Congress last week that neither he nor a separate study by the RAND Corporation can find any evidence of worker shortages. These studies are not anomalies.

VIVEK WADHWA, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Bottom line is that all of our research at Duke and now at Harvard shows the same thing. That there is no shortage of engineers; there's no shortage of scientists. Companies aren't going abroad because of skills. They're going abroad because it's cheaper.

26 comments:

Rob Sanchez said...

Gates is a weasel and a coward. I expect him to pretend like he didn't hear the Dobbs challenge because he knows that unlike the kowtowing Senators he testified to, Dobbs is going to rip him to shreds. Is there someway we can confront Gates with the challenge so that he can't slink away?

Anonymous said...

I don't think Bill Gates has time for a****oles like Lou Dobbs. Maybe you can ask a serious media person to invite him.

Anonymous said...

My my. "weasel"s... "a****oles"...
Okay then, what about Paul Almeida, the AFL-CIO representative from the piece? Or what about Ron Hira, Norm Matloff, Bill Tucker, Kitty Pilgrim, or Christine Romans? Are they all "a****oles" too?
As far as Bill Gates participating in such a debate, we all know that would never happen. He would send bulldog Ballmer.

Anonymous said...

So what is the beef, American workers are going unemployed because of H1B workers, in IT field, really!!!
If Lou Dobbs does his research instead of running his mouth he would know how easy it is for an american resident to find a job in IT, unless there is some 'other' issue with them.
I think the issue here is someone else is prospering instead of us mentality. Because you know only Americans should have the right to any money in the world, because they are 'Americans'. Shameful attitude.

Anonymous said...

Assuming that the commenter above is an Indian national, his charge that Americans are really against H-1B because of "someone else is prospering instead of us mentality" is quite humorous, especially considering what goes on in India. Please visit this link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Indian_anti-reservation_protests

What happened here was that the upper caste Indian students participated in "massive protests" because the government had voted to reserve a certain percentage of places for lower caste students in educational institutions such as IIT. I guess they didn't want the disadvantaged lower caste students to graduate and then prosper instead of them.

The U.S. has a well-known record of being among the most generous countries in the world in both charitable contributions and foreign aid. Using American citizens' tax dollars, the U.S. rebuilt Japan after World War 2, and I think most Americans are quite pleased that Japan came back and became successful. And then there were charities like this one back in 1900:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F06E3D61339E733A25751C1A9609C946197D6CF

Your charge is ludicrous... try another one.

Anonymous said...

engaging in a rational arguement with an Indian national is a fool's errand.

When in comes to stealing jobs, lying, slander, and outright hypocrisy are 2nd nature.

They dont just lie on resumes, you know

Anonymous said...

It is not Indian H1b holders who takes job from Americans. It is American companies who gives jobs to Indians. If there is abuse then law should take care of it. If current law is not enough to handle new reform can be done to prevent abuse in H1B program. I am against taking away jobs from Americans. My view is H1bs should be given job only when shortage of Americans in particular skills. Current immigration law is not enough to curb the abuse. But there is lot politics by Pro immigrants and Corporations when there is attempt to bring a valid reform. Just they want unlimited H1b and green card numbers without even seeing the impact. Till now those legislation was blocked. But repeated attempts to increase H1b numbers and GC numbers can succeed in coming months or years. If that happens then that is worse further for Americans. Atleast cap is there in H1b. No Cap in L1. Big companies are bringing unlimited number of foreigners in L1 without any salary requirements. IS PG is working on to limit L1 also?

Anonymous said...

You have absolutely no clue when you cite the IIT reservation issue to prove that the so called upper caste Indians are not helping lower caste people.

People are protesting because admission to the IITs should be merit based. If the government really wants to help the lower caste community (many of whom are financially way better off than high caste people BTW), it should start at the primary and higher secondary education level so that they are better prepared to get admitted into the IITs on the basis of merit alone.

Throwing an average student with several brilliant ones is unlikely to be a morale booster. Quite often, they struggle to keep up with the rest of the class. It also dilutes the high quality of engineers produced at the IITs.

I didn't realize that advocating a merit based selection policy would seem so odd to an American. But then, we are talking about people who are members of Programmers Guild. What else can you expect?

Anonymous said...

I was one of the person affected by reservation in India as I came in open compettion. But after so many years it is my conclusion that quality was not all impacted because of reservation. Reason is 80% of jobs requires only average or little bit above average math and other skills. Of course many bright students are impacted but there should be participation by all the communities of persons not just one particular community. There are some issues in the reservation concept that poor people in the backward communities are not benefited because of politics. But reservation is needed till all the groups of people are benefited.

Here similar issue is there. 70% of IT jobs require only average skills and any other requirement is compensated by hard work. I do not think any company require foreign talent for the jobs like QA, programming jobs that require only small amount of patch work, Managerial jobs. Even if they could not get any experienced person they can hire a fresh US graduate and train them. But companies do not want to spend that small money and time for that and they want to hire foreign talent.That where the problem comes. Actually there is no argument that US citizens should be given preferrence in hiring. That is what other countries are following. In India can any foreigner get a government job or top private jobs? Indian citizenship is required in most of the jobs. So it is not wrong to expect preferrence for US citizens in hiring

john said...

gates is a greedy liar working against u.s. where he made his billions.

Anonymous said...

To the morons who suck the teat of Gates and Co.,

The engineering and computer scientist shortage is a ruse and everyone knows it is meant to destroy our middle class.

Gates acknowledges NATIONAL PRIDE only when it suits his greedy bastard lousy self.

Notice that in he video, Gates said we shouldn't be turning Indian engineers away from "our country" when in fact, he has threatened (and has done so in Canada) to move locations in order to ditch our own programmers.

We have a shortage of jobs for the number of educated American computer scietists. This love affair with India is over. Time to employ our own graduates and seasoned professionals. If there are any jobs left over, call up the "skilled workers" at that time. Period.

Anonymous said...

Funny...

Lie Dobbs wants to debate Bill Gates.
Why on earth would Bill Gates debate with a person like Lie Dobbs who spreads lies and nothing else.

Like somebody said in the comments.
If you are a citizen or has a green card, it is very very easy to get a
job in tech field. Unless offcourse
they have other problems like obsolete skills or Attitude problem..


Poor H1Bs, if are waiting for their Green cards, which can take upto 6 years can't ask for promotions, raises or change jobs easily...Or they loose their place in green card queue.

So if members of Looser's Guild seriously want to see wages rise they should raise voice to fix
the Employement based green card process.

Anonymous said...

This is a quote from probably a looser's guild's member..
"Time to employ our own graduates and seasoned professionals. If there are any jobs left over, call up the skilled workers at that time. Period."

Now let me comment on it..

I am in IT and in last three years, we hired two engineers. First time, out of 15 applicants only 4 or 5 were citizens and one of them was hired. Not because he was a citizen but because he was the best fit among all.

Second time out of 15 there were about 2-3 citizens and were misfit.
Top three selected by the team needed H1B sponsorship. But it is shame to American immigration system that we had to turn down those three fresh grads who deserved the job. We had to hire #4 who too wasn't a citizen but a green card holder.

Now somebody from Looser's guild would say we should have hired one of the citizen who applied!

Can I know why?

Anonymous said...

You can tell the "highly skilled" kool-aid drinkers who alledgely are supposed to speak English by these assinine quotes who can't even parse a sentence. Here, take a look at these genuises who may actually be hired by one of our corporations to write code (God help us...) I have only quoted a couple of moronic, bothched "thoughts" out of respect for our professionals:

"So if members of Looser's Guild seriously want to see wages rise they should raise voice to fix
the Employement based green card process."

AND...

"Now somebody from Looser's guild would say we should have hired one of the citizen who applied!"

Unfuckingbelievable. And yet, they keep coming back to "impress" us and "convince" us that they are worth a damn. Ha, ha, ha.

Anonymous said...

Did someone say "fix the employment green card system?"

Throwing it out and stopping truning off the Indian tap is the only way to fix it.

There aren't enough engineering jobs (Wadwha study/Norm Matloff, etc.) to go around for our graduating engineers here. Get a clue, Indians who want our jobs. Go make some of your own over there if your so smart.............

Anonymous said...

If Indian software engineers are getting 20 to 50% hike in pay every year what is the wrong in PG persons expecting similar pay rise here. From India millions of people may be interested in coming USA and may be Superior in skills. But that does not mean that everyone need to be given job. In India and china can any foreigner can be hired. It cannot be imagined. It is correct to expect free trade. But why India is doing so much protectionism in so money things includin currency and job. If same thing is asked by US citizen then that is wrong. It is called double standards

Anonymous said...

If you are an american citizen in high tech field and can't find a job, there is seriously wrong somewhere in your skill-set or attitude.

Look at the unemployment rate in High tech field.

Anonymous said...

The sheer arrogance of some of the obvious Indian commentators is astounding (I know I am one too). This shift from treating the jobs and GC as an hard earned achievement and being thankful to the host society to an attitude of ethnic superiority & entitlement is not going to serve us well. Perhaps the start of a new era of 'ugly Indian' here..
I agree with the author who said most IT jobs are ordinary and do not require someone to be brought from 10,000 miles away.

Anonymous said...

kallis,

Your screed is propaganda.
The Department of Labor is in cahoots with corporations. Years ago, our government and the technology lobby sold us out to India to replace our professionals for theirs. What are our professionals supposed to do? For the few lucky ones remaining in this dumbed downed workforce courtesy the scabs (no offense to the people per se but to the horrible corporations who hate Americans) wages are continually being driven down to the point that our professionals can no longer afford to live and work as cost of living soars. Our people are being used as pawns by our corrupt corporations and government and you think we will continue to put up with it?

Anonymous said...

Let's hate each other.

Anonymous said...

I'm an Indian and I've been working as an IT consultant for a US company for the past 3 years. I can very well understand the frustration experienced by US Professionals due to outsourcing - but all I could say is its the reality. In my view, Globalization started 500 years ago, when the whole world came and looted India - then the richest country in the world. With just 60 years of independence and freedom, the people of India are able to compete with rest of the world. Ofcourse we have disparity and complex and diverse social systems - but I would request the rest of the world to atleast appreciate the fact that we are still able to live together even when we have all these disparities and diversity - with minimal resources and comforts. We haven't invaded any one's land and killed or suppressed all the native men to establish the 'home land'. Our history dates back to historical times, not just 300 years. So please change that 'we are the world and rest of all are third world' attitude. (Funny that the T-shirt worn by a red-indian guys said 'protectinig homeland from invaders since 1492).

My supervisor - who is american - prefers to employ people from India just because he can't find the right person with the right attitude and work ethics. I dont want to generalize, but this is the comment I heard from my supervisor. The american collegue rips the employer off if he has to touch the keyboard after 5:00 PM.

Now, I'm not afraid if US stops issuing visas to foreing workers - its simple - those jobs will go offshore. If you employ a foreing worker here, we will pay the tax and pay for your social security too. And that too for how long - dollar is going nose down and companies have started finding new markets in europe and asia.

The whole offshoring thing might have started with cost advantage, but now you need to realize - with the talent pool, knowledge base, technical expertise and domain knowledge taken collectively, Indian companies can deliver top-notch quality work. Thats what is being recognized now. We are not cheap anymore - we are reasonable and hardworking. We are not here to loot and I request you to think that there are people outside USA, who are human beings. We do respect other human beings - please learn to respect that atleast.

US is a great nation and its tradition of multi cultural and ethnic society is its strength and foundation. Now what americans need to learn is with the world shrinking so fast, only option they are left with is to change with times. Why don't you learn to outsmart us - be realistic about your expectations and be the best in your trade - no one can neglect you. I know I will have to say the same to my american citizen kid 20 years down the line when he starts whining about his own blood.

And as a last note, I saw a couple of comments on our english skills - just think - its not our first language - and if you are able to understand what I mean - I think thats pretty much enough - I'm doing you a favour ;-) You can be a little considerate.


In one way, you have this country today because your ancestors were on the quest to loot the wealth of India. US is the land of opportunities so give us our share.

Jim said...

FALLACY 1. AMERICAN WORKERS ARE LAZY AND HAVE TO COMPETE.

THEN LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD!!!

Tax the Outsourced work to adjust for differences to currency value and add in the cost of US working standards and benefits. This would be FAIR trade, not 'FREE-LY STEAL The US Workers Trade.'

The American worker will then have a LEVEL playing field to compete.

I resent the sales pitch of Indian corporations putting down the quality of American work. It is well known that even with the unfair benefit of the Indian worker being cheap, a percentage of outsourced work STILL comes back because of SHODDY INDIAN WORKMANSHIP. Amazing. I know of some Indians that produce decent work and some that produce garbage, there is no rule here based on race or country.

The incentive for outsourcing is based on COST relating to the higher value of the US dollar. It is not based on quality.

To Anonymous Previous Poster - If your story is not a complete LIE to begin with, DO NOT STEREOTYPE Americans based on your experience some particular worker. An Indian Co-Worker once informed me I should not work as hard as 'they will then demand more'. My company has fired several H1B's for poor work. So should I now Stereo Type YOU?


FALLACY 2: Politicians just say Americans should just RETRAIN. Retrain for what?? To be a cashier at Wal-Mart a.k.a China-Mart? Are there enough plumbing jobs in the US for all the white collar workers?????

There is no higher value added product for Americans to re-educate themselves to create. Whatever that product is can also be produced by a corporation that moves the jobs offshore. Who wants to waste another many years in college to find out later that the opportunity has also moved offshore?

40% of White Collar jobs are at risk. With all of the engineering talent gone, this country won't be able to construct a cardboard box. I wonder whose taxes are going to pay for the wars then??? Oh yeah, we'll just borrower from China until they own us. ENOUGH of the trade deficit and PARASITIC trading relationships with foreign countries.

FALLACY 3: H1B's WILL HELP KEEP JOBS IN THE US.

Pure BS. I spoke to a recruiter trying to hire me to work for Cognizant. He said they had 20,000 consultants just waiting to come into the US but couldn't because of H1-B limits. The H1B workers only purpose is to outsource the work, and not immigrate or work here for any length of time. Just like Lou Dobbs states, if they take the limit off of H1-B's they will be used to outsource the work and the jobs will be gone.

To previous anonymous poster...

Those jobs will move offshore either way, but they'll move faster with the H1B's workers getting first-hand knowledge of that work inside the US.

-----------VOTING------------

The American worker votes for the politicians and they have no obligation to India to vote for a sleazy US politician that encourages the offshoring of US Jobs.

If Americans ever get any common sense they will vote for politicians that will tax outsourcing and add a percentage tariff to imported products (read "products that were created through outsourcing"). This should be done to the point of keeping unemployment and the standard living in the US stable. This should also be done to keep the US independent. What if our relationship with a country that we then depend on for all engineers isn't our friend anymore? Stupid politicians.


Tariffs are the reason we have foreign auto manufacturers manufacturing cars in this country.

Amazing, we'll use tariffs to protect other industries like auto manufacturing, furniture, or shrimp farming, but when it comes to high tech, no one cares. It's actually very straight forward; there isn't a strong IT worker lobby paying off politicians. This country works on political bribery. Maybe when outsourcing start affecting more of the other occupations voters will finally get a clue.


OBAMA is the only politician still running who has voiced some skepticism regarding offshoring. Hillary ESTABLISHED an offshoring firm in NY and takes political bribes from pro-outsourcing corporations.

---
This person, Paul Craig Roberts, who was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan, seems to have a good perspective on where off shoring is taking the country: http://www.vdare.com/roberts/080120_stimulus.htm.

Anonymous said...

The law states that a company can not hire a H1B visa person if an American can do the job. This administration has ignored that law and has failed to prosecute companies that violate it. Many engineers that I know, which are over 40, have repeatably applied to Microsoft for work and been denied. These people could of done all the work that H1B workers are doing. Therefore Microsoft is in violation of two laws; must hire Americans first, must not discriminate due to age. Gates should go to jail.

Anonymous said...

Why worry about H1B - which at least tries to have rules about paying prevailing wages and has quotas- when L1 visas are available without quotas/caps and with no rules about prevailing wages. Moreover the L1 employees cannot change jobs to a higher paying one so effectively it is modern day slavery. Additionally since spouse on L2 visa can work too US may lose 2 jobs.

Anonymous said...

Gross abuses of l1, H1B visas are happeneing every day - US banks have hired 20000 foreign workers - I can't beleive American workers are unavailable to work in banks

If Americans are in shortage for every job from software to teaching to banking then what do americans 280 millions do (excluding 20 million illegals from Mexico)

H1B should be ended and stopped for three years - L1 should be issued to people like Linus Torvalds who create Operating systems, not a programmer at application level or the like

Anonymous said...

Talented American Brothers,

I will work on getting consensus amongst all Indians and stop them from applying for H1B, L1; PROVIDED you raise your voice against American Corporations from doing business in other nations.

I will gurantee not a single H1B, L1 will come to your country and you'll get your dream job.

Do you promise there won't be any single American Oil Company or Mighty Bank in rest of the world?

DEAL?

Why do you think Microsoft has so much money, they sell more windows to outside world as compared to US, so why should they not employ H1B workers with that same money?

Definitely thank Lou Dobb as he is helping you in your cause...

Imagine Microsoft will hire only Americans and sell their products only to Americans they've hired.

If there is no decent market for foreign professional in USA. Why should there be a respectable market for American products in rest of the world.

Maybe India/China should stop respecting IPR and copyrights, Why pay American company extra money when they are just making copies of it and charging $200 a copy.

So, what should H1B guys do after going back, start windows piracy business right?

How would you stop them then? Would you or Microsoft really have any right to do so?